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Postings on Wikipedia Ezhava Page

I had done some postings on the Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, I did it without much deliberation, first. This first post generated a lot of retorts and reactions. This compelled me to give more answers.

There was a lot acrimonious reactions to this.� Many of my posts were simply deleted, or vandalised with someone posting obnoxious sentences into it. Moreover, since there was a lot of manipulation going on in my writings, with some of the alterations verging on dangerous provocative themes, I felt that there is need to maintain the integrity of my writings.

So I am keeping a parallel copy of my posts in the Wikepedia Ezhava Talk Page here. So that anyone who desires to understand the continuity and logical progression of the themes, can come here and get the full gist. No other persons posts in the Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page will be copied or posted here.

In all posts, proper links to the Wikepedia Talk Page shall be given, for the interested reader to understand the context of the writings.

It may be mentioned in passing that I do not have any caste feelings. I do not vouch for the on-going caste based reservations being doled out to the various groups, each competing on claims of antique inferiority. The need of the hour is to appreciate quality, and not mediocrity.��

Readers here may be interested in this write up Thiyyas on this same webpage


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Thiyyas verses Ezhavas

I was born in the Thiyya community in North Malabar of Kerala. As one of my parents was from a relatively senior bureaucrat, and English was a very easy language in our family, the feeling of being Other Backward Caste was never there. Yet, when in the 70s I moved to Travancore areas, I was confronted by a caste known as Ezhavas.

In certain ways, this caste was having certain commonality with that of Thiyyas, Mainly in that both had a connection to a hereditary vocation connected to Coconut trees. In later years, I was told that both castes were same, and the difference in nomenclature was only a colloquial aberration.

Yet, it was not a fact. There are a lot of very salient points of difference between these two castes. At the same time there is a lot of variation among the Thiyyas themselves, as one move from North Malabar to South Malabar.

I do not know what the anthropological version is; but the fact is the two castes look different. The Ezhavas on an average have a tilt to a darker complexion, while the Thiyyas do have a tilt to a fairer complexion. It is true that there are also Thiyyas who are dark and Ezhavas who are fair.

Next is the aspect of social conventions. The social conventions are absolutely different. The Ezhavas are basically having patriarchal family systems. The Thiyyas of North Malabar were having Matriarchal family systems. As one moves north, the thiyyas slowly turn patriarchal. It may be mentioned that now matriarchal system has been made redundant by law.

Then comes the religious customs of the Thiyyas; they were intimately connected to such concepts as Kavus, theyyam, thira, vallattam and such. Muthappan was a very special Kula daivam of this caste. What the Ezhavas have in corresponding level, is not known to me.

In the 70's when I first confronted the Ezhavas, the most striking feature among them was a sort of inferiority complex; I believe this may have disappeared over the years. I found that this inferiority complex was basically connected to the fact that they were considered to be low caste by the Brahmins, Varmas, and Nair of Travancore area, and also due to the fact that this nation (Travancore) was a Kingdom where this was a statutory feature.

At the same time, the thiyyas had a variety of experiences in this regard. In Malabar also, in most places Thiyyas did have a lower profile. Yet, because of the direct British rule and the setting up of English education and colleges under the aegis of the British rule gave a real boost to the Thiyyas of such places as Tellicherry and Cannanore. So that, in these places instead of growing up as a lower classes, they learnt English and entered the higher echelons of administration during the British period. This led to the creation of a small section of thiyyas families who exuded a superior stance, which protected them from the assaults of caste problems.

Yet, the fact was that in many other places of Malabar this social elevation of the thiyyas did not reach, and they did exist at varying social levels. Most of them were sort of serfs of the landlords with few claims to social status. Their language was also embedded with self deprecatory words.

The information that Ezhavas and Thiyyas are from the same caste came very recently. In many ways this was imposed on the Thiyyas by the government versions. It had its good points, including the fact that it gave a wider spread in matrimonial alliances.

The other major reason that this came about was due to the fact that thiyyas demanded Other Backward Caste Status in public appointments and education, when it was seen that Ezhavas were enjoining this. When Malabar was part of the Madras Presidency, Thiyyas did not enjoy this feature. When in 1956, Malabar was amalgamated with Travancore-Cochin to form Kerala, this fact came to the notice of the Thiyyas, and a mass demand was made to remove this discrepancy. I think from this date onwards, the feeling that Ezhavas and Thiyyas are same, came about.

Another feature of the Thiyyas that I have noticed is their connection with the marital arts known as Kalarippayattu. I do not know if Ehavas were associated with any similar things. Yet, it must be mentioned that even though Thiyyas were associated with Kalarippayattu, it would be simply meaningless to say that those Thiyyas who were exponents in this martial arts were social seniors, as depicted in popular cinema. They most probably would have been the henchmen of smalltime landlords, and would have been at their beck and call.

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Second Post

I find the whole discussion very, very interesting. I am not a formal expert in the themes discussed. Yet, I am urged to bring in my own observations.It is true that there is a qualitative difference between the Ezhavas of the South, and the Thiyyas of the north. Yet, among the theyyas themselves there are tremendous variation in culture and mental stature as one moves around Malabar.

Before going into that I would like to focus on the stimulating theme that the fair colour of a percentage of thiyyas are connected to the hybridisation done by the European races, mainly British. I must say that it is total rubbish; even thought the average thiyya wouldnt mind the allegation.

In my own family tree at Tellicherry there a number of persons who are fair in complexion; but this complexion have nothing to do with the white colour of the European races. It is a totally Asian whiteness; starkly different from the other. I think I can vouch for a few generations backwards, with absolutely no link to a White race.Another amazing thing that I have noted is the fact that in my parental family, I have found that persons who are good in English, and bear an English bearing, have a more soft, fairer looks, while the non-English knowing persons are generally more darker and more cruder in attitudes.

Then another strange observation of mine was that some 30 to 40 years ago in the Tellicherry, Cannanore areas, I did come across Thiyya men having a very sophisticated stature, the kind of persons I have not seen in other castes including Nairs, Brahmins or Ezhavas. The persons were basically not of high social level, yet bearing a pose of elevated mental stature. This mental stature and pose of interaction was not connected to any level of arrogance, but a feeling of being on par with the best in the society; and not having anyone suppressing them. I believe that this feeling had much to do with the liberation that British rule did bring in.

One observation that I made was that the word for you in Malayalam, that is Ningal was the ordinary word for polite interaction among them.When I came to the Travancore areas in the 70s, I found that a new word Sar, which was in consonance with the South Kerala social philosophy of Kariyam kaanaan kazhuthakkaalum pidikkanam. Later this self demeaning word came and corrupted the whole North Malabar Malayalam communication.Then there is another aspect of caste feeling that has been imputed to by Panikkar. It is that the older generations of North Malabar do not want to be identified with the Ezhavas, while the Ezhavas do not have any qualms about it.

The extension of this fact is that even though the older generation of Tellicherry and such areas do have a feeling of superiority complex, as one moves to interiors, the quality of the Thiyyas go down very much; many of them still carry on the mental encumbrances of their yesteryears of servitude. The language quality goes down; looks also change from that of mental elevation to that of a tint of grotesqueness. In these interior areas, the higher level Thiyyas do not like to identify themselves with the common Thiyya groups. I have even come across a certain group of Thiyyas who say that they are not really Thiyya, but are Vysyas, and their names have suffixes of Vaidyar. Yet, for matrimonial purposes they use to seek alliances with Thiyyas of Tellicherry and Cannanore.

The words Thiyyathi and Theeyyan were used as the usage for the lower working class, even by the Thiyya higher classes.

Yet, talking of progress, the modern thiyya generations of Tellichery and Cannanore do not really display much qualitative difference from their Thiyya brethrens from the interiors. They do not bother much about being identified as Ezhavas or nor. The new focus is on becoming Doctors and Engineers and such other professionals, and seek places in the higher echelons of the feudal language hierarchy; or become government employees.

The mental elevation of the Thiyyas has come down in spite of these achievements. One of the reasons is the disappearance of the British as the ideal, and their replacement by meaner moods.

As to the claim that the South has surged ahead of the north, there are many minor aspects to this claim. One is that with the formation India, and even before that there was a lot of colleges being set up in the South, with all communities competing in this; NSS. SNDP, the various Christian groups, and bringing out a new breed of education based on a certificate called degree.

The bachelors of the various arts that came from these institutions were entirely different from those who had emerged from similar institutions of British ruled times in Malabar. The latter were persons who were really good in the essential moods of English, having a very liberated social view. Many were well read in English classical literature; many of them were even from the Thiyya community. Yet, they were very few in number and stood much apart from the common Thiyya.When these persons joined the national bureaucracy as members of the erstwhile Madras bureaucracy, they were generally honest to a fault in public affairs, and totally incorruptible.

The new breed of graduate who then came out from the South was totally devoid of these qualities; yet, the formal certificates were equal to the older version from Malabar. They outnumbered them and in no time, swarmed all public institutions, including the bureaucracy, the education, the police and every other thing. They brought in the feudal attitude of Travancore to all these institutions; now even Malabar follows these traits.Now Malabar suffers from both the tragic affects of the feudal Malayalam language at both ends, the bottom as well as the top. Earlier, the top was spared from its evil affects.It must be admitted that the average person of south is more knowledgeable than his counterpart from north.

Yet, there are other facts also, like the Gulf connection of Malabar.The other reason for South emerging as higher in public consciousness is the fact that Trivandrum was made the Capital, in spite of the fact that Ernakulam should really have been the Capital. It would have not deprived the north of so much bureaucracy-led development.

As to the comments on the Muslims, the so-called Mappillas of Malabar, my observation is that many are actually the offspring of Arab and such other maritime traders, born to local women. Actually, the Zamorin, I think, did give a number of villages to these sea traders, as their sole possession. The affect of Arabian language is very evident in their Mappilla dialect, not only in the input of words, but also in the very obvious meagreness of feudal content in their social interaction, till some 15 years back. It may be noted that standard Arabic is a language with very little feudalism in it. Now the modern Mappillas have severely lost this aspect of their social communication, and do exhibit a lot of feudal content in their social communication. It is a complicated picture.

Talking about language and feudalism, I am a person who has done a lot of research on this aspect of languages; and also on other codes in the software called language. --Ved from Victoria Institutions 10:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

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The whole theme has turned very, very interesting indeed. What is evident here is that the Thiyyas (mainly of north Malabar) do not want to be identified with the Ezhavas, why the Ezhavas are bent on claiming that both are same.

I think the fact the Thiyas of north Malabar did have a different growth structure for some time, was due to the some 100-150 years of British rule over there. It did affect only a minor percentage of the families there, not all Thiyyas. Again, it was not hybridization done by the British on the DNA, but the general difference English atmosphere that bore down on them, which was not strangling (shallow historians may write huge books on the slavery imposed by the British, but reality was different). This change and much more can be discerned on persons of all castes, not only Thiyyas, but also Pulaya, Brahmin, and Nair etc. if they are allowed to be born and bred in English nations.

I do not have any particular affinity for the Thiyyas as well as for the Ezhavas, other than as other human beings. Yet, I can relate some experiences. During my college days in Travancore, when my caste was mentioned, I found Ezhavas arguing vehemently that I was a Ezhava, while, though I had no great caste consciousness, I found it a bit disconcerting when persons of unconnected and unknown social groups claiming that I belonged to their group. What disturbed more was their attitude of self-righteousness, as well as seeming right to such claims.

Yet, can I say that I find that Thiyyas themselves are all of supreme levels? I do not think so. One of the reasons that the Thiyyas of such places as Tellicherry and Cannanore did prosper much was due to such institutions as Brennen College and the English convents then.

Brennen College opened its doors to all, without reference to their castes, so that the Thiyyas of Tellicherry literally got a unique opportunity that had possibly not come their way in a thousand years or more. Yet, this opportunity was not a blessing for such castes as the Nairs, as they found that they were going to be forced to sit with the lower castes. They could only join the Zamarins college, faraway at Calicut, which was not financially feasible for most.

So English education, as well as bureaucratic jobs came the Thiyya way. It had a tremendous effect on the social scenario, for there were Thiyya Magistrates, where the feudal landlords were from the higher castes. Yet, it was not a low intellectual breed of bureaucrats, but persons well trained in liberal English systems.

I can relate another incident. One of my relatives was in Bombay; working as an officer in a British company, extremely fair, very good in English, and the children good in English, and knowing only a bit of Malayalam. This person told me one incident. They were living in an Apartment. Their caste was not an issue there as most of the others were non Malayalees. In the early 60s some Ezhavas came to stay in the Apartment. Naturally as Malayalees, they tried close association. Then this person told me, They claimed that Ezhavas and Thiyyas are same. Immediately we converted in to Menons.

I do not know what this incident is to be seen as; may be as the minor tragedies that are destined to haunt the minor moods of an inferior social system.

The present day descendants of this person, who simply converted to Menon, do not display the same level of superior looks, other than what money and English speaking ability can lend. I have found Ezhavas also who are coming from families who have domiciled in English nations also having similar personality development.

Yet, there is no need for the Ezhavas to be so bent on claiming that Thiyyas are Ezhavas, when the Thiyyas themselves do not think so. In fact, before the Kerala State formation, I doubt if many Thiyya had even heard the word Ezhava, for the whole focus then was on Madras as the Capital. Ezhavas can develop, imbibing good cultural standards as well as English. Similarly the Thiyyas (most of them) can also make use of the same, for betterment.

There was another very interesting incident in my life. During my college days in Travancore, during a talk on each others caste I said, in a very easy manner in English, with no inferiority complex, I am Thiyya. I did not know the effect I was making on others, who did not know what a Thiyya was. Later one acquaintance told me that I was having a superiority complex due to my high caste. I asked him to explain. He said: That day you said very assertively, I am a Thiyya.

Another minor issue I found is that of saying that the protagonists of Vadakkan pattukal are Ezhavas. The characters of Vadakkan pattuakal are from Malabar and as such are either Nairs or Thiyyas (I am not sure which); not Ezhavas. Again, Dr. Palpu is mentioned as (Ezhava or Thiyya). Dr. Palpu was Ezhava; the problems he faced in his life are connected to the issues of a native Indian kingdom, where British rule was not in force.

Another issue that I would like to rake up is sure to rattle more emotions. It is about Sree Narayana Guru. He sure must have been a very vibrant intellectual. Yet, his relevance to Malabar social problems alleviation is not clear. There is a Temple at Temple Gate, Tellicherry, where the Thiyyas go for social celebrations. Yet, the most important force that stood by them was the British rule and the English language. As for Narayana Guru himself, I doubt what would have been his plight if the British supremacy over Travancore Kings and the British installed Supreme Court had not been in place. If one wants to see how persons who incurred Royal Wrath was treated over there in the Travancore-Cochin regions, one can go to the Hill Palace Museum, at Tripunithura, and see the metal human frame there.

Also, one may find mention of many other social leaders who worked for the uplift-ment of the Ezhavas; yet, the same kinds of persons who worked for the social uplift-ment of Thiyyas are conspicuous by their absence in Malabar. This again points to the existence of a major political force in existence in Malabar, which opened the doors for the Thiyyas.

Then I need to answer to the claim that the growing inputs of feudalism in the Malayalam language, growing corruption in bureaucracy, and other atrophies are signs of growth, and that my noticing them are because of generation gap. I find it a shallow manner to understand the reality. If Sati comes back into popularity, will anyone say it is just what is happening in other places in the world in some different manner; or that if anyone notices its evilness, that it is due to generation gap?

The other thing that needs mention is the mention of Official Positions in this debate, wherein titles of doubtful value intellectually are being used to give force to shallow arguments. It is a misuse of government titles of dubious value.

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For posting comments on this Wikipedia page, go the current page on Wikipedia.

 



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Fourth post
I can understand the misunderstanding I seem to be igniting. I am not proposing any Thiyya superiority in this place. I think that it is very visible in my writings that I do not feel that the Thiyya are a superior caste, as a whole. What is evident to me is that any group of persons who get a chance to feel the liberation of English systems, do exhibit a liberated looks.

Yet, as to labeling me a Ezhava, or Nair or Pulaya does not feel comfortable, for it has no basis. I have no idea to get a collection of signatures from Thiyyas and submit to Govt. that Thiyyas are different not only from Ezhavas, but also from Nairs, Pulayas, and Brahmins. For, it is pertinently evident that all are human beings and as such equals, before the eyes of god. As to govt. records, it is wrong.

As to the Conversion to Menon; I was referring to the presence of negative codes in the social mood over here.

As to there being a Thiyya Memorial, the social circumstance that brought the Ezhava Memorial is not there in Kerala now, nor was there then in Malabar.

It would be very foolish to call me a Nair, for I would object to it, not because a Nair is not a human being, but because as per caste identifications, a Nair is not a Thiyya; also not because he or she is a superior or inferior. It is just a fact of colloquial understandings that a Nair is not a Thiyya.

Again, I did mention the reaction to my assertive words: I am a Thiyya. What I wanted to convey is that if a Pulaya can say with the same assertiveness: I am a Pulaya then the inferiority feelings may simply disappear. At present the law forbids the calling a Pulaya a Pulaya; yet one can call a Brahmin a Brahmin and there is no problem. If Pulayas had the same chance that a minor percentage of Thiyyas had, to receive British/English exposure, it is very much possible that they too would have improved much. Even though I do not know much about it, I think the Pulayas did not get this chance for English education from them.

Talking about other castes, when one goes to interior Malabar, even so-called higher castes like the Brahmins, Nairs etc. do not exhibit a modern type of mental elevation. The social elevations most have are just a form of crude, cunning feudal strangling of lower groups, and an affable attitude to socially higher groups. Yet, this is not really a Caste character, but really a reality of the Indian social scene.

Thus, Ezhavas do not need to have any inferiority complex; and no need to identify with anyone else.

As for me being a Thiyya, it is just a matter on which I had no choice or control; this fact is a matter of supreme indifference to me, till someone starts identifying me with other groups.

Yet, when my full stance is known, I do know that most Thiyyas would object to my posture. It is that all this caste classifications are necessary due to the reservations now in force for numerous castes, in public appointment and education. I basically hope that all such nefarious priorities are done away with. For, this has allowed the entry of unfit person not only in bureaucracy, but also in education.

I am sure that most readers here would stand against me in this attitude.

This wite up is a copy of what is posted on:
Any comments can be posted on the main Ezhava Talk Page, and not on the link given.


*An insertion

The Nairs claim themselves to be Kshtriyas, while I have seen Ezhavas describe them as Shudras. Well, the truth may be somewhere in between. When I was in Travancore, in the year 1970, there was a case, then isolated but need not be so now, of a Nair girl married to a Ezhava boy. Both were, I think, doctors. The Ezhavas used to refer to her as the Shudrathi, and the Nairs used to refer to him as the Chovvan. Both are basically derisive words.

 

Now whys there such negative inputs? Well, it can be connected to the feudal language of the place. For, in this language, people generally try to connect a person who is not an acknowledged superior into a lower rank, or position in language. The words are there, and it is used. For, equality is not allowed by the language. Everyone is insecure, if not in a secure position in language. The only way to fend off this insecurity is to be offensive; More or less, offence is the best form of defence.

 

Again, the inferiority imposed on the Ezhvas during the Kings rule would encase them in a powerful negativity, which will be seen as both infectious as well as crippling to anyone who reaches a level of equality with them.

 

The Nairs would strive to be reach the levels of their deemed social superiors, while they would see the aspiring Ezhavas as a real threat to their own aspirations.

 

All this I am saying from a background of language code inputs. However, it is my own experience that anyone who can exist beyond the clutches of negative codes of the vernacular can reach out an area that exists beyond all this negative mental mood. For, example, a Nair youngster and a Ezhava youngster, both born and bred in an English nation, with zero Kerala native inputs will show no difference in intellect and physical attributes other than some feeble display of hereditary genes. Even the physical size and bodily postures will be different.

 

Even now after so many years, after India was formed, from a cluster of around 650 kingdoms, the caste feeling have not gone away; it has only changed colour and new castes have emerged, like those connected to profession. Like Doctors, Government employees, Engineers, Drivers, Tailors etc. Maybe these castes are not hereditary, but then in a man lifetime, they do exist powerfully.

My one proposition is that a dose of good, non-feudal English (which is currently not taught in Indian schools) can do wonders as a panacea to the many negative infections that this nation has.�



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Fifth Post

Some more titbits
Ezhavas and Thiyyas do have similar vocations to a certain extent, yet it doubtful that they are both a same caste. For example, Muthappan is a sort of Kuladaivam of the Thiyyas; yet, when I was in Travancore during my early days, I doubt if any Ezhava of that locality had even heard of Him at that time. It is possible that one may find similar social groups in all nations where there are coconut trees.

The problem as I saw it has this one component. When we were staying in Travancore during the 70s, many Ezhavas used to come to our house, and talk about the terrible impositions they had to bear from the upper castes including the Nairs, and the nobility. There was real hurt in their words.

Yet, the problem that time was the situation they described was of no connection to us. This was basically because of being the English educated Thiyya from North Malabar, and that too from a bureaucrats family. There were many other Thiyyas of similar disposition then in Travancore, who had come there due to the Kerala State formation, wherein they had opted for Kerala Service instead of Madras State Service. It was these Thiyyas who acutely felt the difference from the local Ezhava from Travancore.

Yet, similar experiences were there for the majority Thiyyas in Malabar, but in a most subdued manner due to the fact that political power had been in British hands. I remember on Nambiar woman from interior Cannanore telling me that when they were young, Thiyyas were not allowed inside their premises, and even Muthappan Vellattom was perceived as a low caste invocation.

Then talking about complexion, actually it is not dark features that are remarkable. For American Blacks are dark and African Blacks are also dark; yet one discerns a real difference in the American Black of slave descent.

Then I need to tell about another feature connected to language. It is this; many years ago when I lived in interior Malabar, I found a very shocking communication code there; actually it is a common feature all over India, but with regional and time-connected metamorphosis.

All higher castes persons including young children were addressing lower level Thiyya men and women of even very senior age with a Nee, and Ooan(him) or Ooal (she). There were many other connected words, which really had the strength of social codes. I cant go into them here, as it is a long theme.

Now in many areas of Malabar, Muslims (Mappillas) have taken over the vacuum created by the displacement of Nairs from senior financial positions. Now, in many places Thiyya labour class is dependant on them of survival. In certain places like Nadapuram, the Muslim children use these words to senior aged labour class Thiyyas. Actually, it is not really the fault of the Muslims, but of the language structure. Yet, it does lend a hand to provoking communal tension.

Then I need to say of another observation. Near my present dwelling there are many government aided schools. Earlier times, the high caste children did have an elevated looks and personality, as they could address the senior aged lower castes with Nee etc. They themselves were protected from the barbs of such stinging words. The lower caste children were the focus of more stinging words that really did affect their general personality, and made them crude. Neither their caste nor their parents were affective in protecting them in this.

Now, with the universal-isation of education, all children are at the butt end of the same level of stinging words. All do have the same look; the Brahmin, and Nair children all have the same Thiyya looks, unless they are superbly rich and safe from the social stings. The superior aura is lost.

Why I am writing all this is because I do trace many social events and designs to the codes in languages. Interested persons may visit this link to see another writing of mine in a UK debate forum[2]

When I visited Wikepedia after so many days, I found that two of my posts have disappeared. I do not know if someone would do the same again with this article. I find that more acceptability can be derived here, if I simply go on repeating on the glorious traditions of the castes under discussion, instead of giving out some meaningful information.

This is a copy of the post made on http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=136122875
Comments can be given on the main Ezhava Talk page and not on this link page.



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Sixth Post

Now a few words on Vandalising: it sure is the pastime of mediocre minds; what else can they do with the meagre inputs they have in their minds?

This link is towards an archived page from Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=136330407

Comments can be added to the main Ezhava Talk Page and not to the linked page


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Seventh Post

It doesn't help feigning blind to facts. It reaches us nowhere I am re-posting my three posts; I did not know that it was so noticeable as to provoke inimical minds.

This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=136330946

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page.


-- Edited by Ved at 18:25, 2007-06-22

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Eighth Post

My posts have been completely removed twice in two days. I pity the petty Vandal.

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Ninth Post

I think it is a wrong perception that has come here. My posts were attacked several times a day, with dangerous themes, for which I cannot take reponsiblity. Instead of being protected my posts have be completely removed. I think this was what the vandals wanted.

Tenth Post

For the sake of those who are interested this is the link to the version of my posts, that were removed

This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=137732773

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page

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Eleventh Post

Rejoinder to User:Keraleeyan

I saw your comment on my writings. I am grateful that someone has openly appreciated the contents. You comments are regretfully lost from this page. It is available on the link I gave above.

Twelveth Post

Intellectualism in seclusion

I find that all my posts have been removed. Also, all the debates that sprang up from them. If this is the type of intellectual debate that is going to be conducted here, it certainly is a sad day for information. Unilateral declarations on the basis of some technical titles, made without any basis do not make valid data.


This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=137881128

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page



-- Edited by Ved at 18:53, 2007-06-22

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Thirteenth Post

Also, I find that when my posts have been removed, there is no more vandalism

Fourteenth Post

An effort at correction

I would like to bring out the wrong perspective in the post Ezhavas and Tiyyas (by K K Kusaumam)

in Malabar and some parts of Kochi they are known as Thiyyar", It is not correct; Ezhavas are not known as Thiyyar in Malabar.

I do not know about Itty Achyuthan. Yet, as he was a person who helped in the compilation of Hortius Malabaricus, it is possible that he is from Malabar. So he must be a Thiyya.

CORRECTION: It is seen that he is from Cherthala and not from Malabar and an Ezhava. So the above summation has no relevence. 

Tiyas of Malabar, like the Ezhavas of Cochin and Travancore, are with martial heritage." I do not think that all Thiyyas were with marital heritage, like one may identify the Sikhs (even though it is not possible all Sikhs had martial feelings). Kalari was a practise in some Thiyya household, but for the majority Thiyya, it had no relevance. Even among the Thiyyas who did practise Kalari, it was not to give a position of social elevation, other than the physical exercise.

Most of the things mentioned in the article are basically the historical experiences of the Ezhavas. There is no need to superimpose them on the Thiyya population.

This I am saying not because I feel the Thiyyas as a superior race and the Ezhavas as an inferior. It is just because I find that there are severe mistakes being given the halo of scholarship.

When I was in Travancore, the school classes did teach about the terrible British rule; yet, it is a historical fact that the British did not rule Travancore and Cochin. The problems that the Ezhavas suffered is basically connected to the realities of living under Indian Kings, as opposed to the liberation that was given under the British rule; what I am saying is absolutely contrary to what is taught by History teachers and professors in immense schools and colleges in India.

Being a subjugated class always inspires feelings of inferiority complex. Not only the Ehavas, but also the Thiyyas did have this feeling. Yet, a small time of political liberation did give a small group of Thiyyas the mental liberation.

A Thiyya-Ezhava marriage is essentially an inter-caste marriage It does not mean that one is superior and the other is inferior. There are Thiyyas who have married schedule caste professionals who are internationally mobile. I have not noticed any inferiority complex in them. There are Thiyyas who have married Brahmins. In both cases, I did not discern any inferiority complex.

Again talking about leaders, Dr. Palpu, Sree Narayana Guru, SNDP, Kumaran Asan, R Sankar, and such movements as Ezhava Memorial, Civil Right League in the 1920s and the Abstention Movement of the 1930s, and institutions like Kaumudi daily, Vivekodayam and Mitavadi and such could be connected to the Ezhavas. I do not think that the Thiyyas as a group did have much to do with them; so they cannot claim any legacy to them.. (I am not sure of all of them).

Again in the main article on Ezhava, I find a mention of an incident that is said to have ignited the Mappila Lahala. It is mentioned that one Ezhava women of Ponnani, who had converted to Islam did go to meet a higher caste man attired with an upper garment. She then addressed the upper caste man with his name. In anger, he pulled out her upper garment. Now the basic mistake I find in this story, (if it is true), is that since this incident purportedly took place in Ponnani, in Valluvanad, it is very much possible that the mentioned women is a Thiyya and not an Ezhava. Yet, when propriety of what she did is discussed, it was a misdemeanor. Even now in Malayalam, social or positional subordinates or even age wise subordinates are not allowed to address a superior by name, other with a suffix of a title.

What this means is that the same problems that haunted the people of this land is still stalking us. Actually, now the caste based on Nair, Ezhava, Thiyya, Brahmin etc. is breaking down. For caste is essentially connected to profession as encoded in a feudal language. No Thiyya doctor will marry a Thiyya tailor or a driver unless overcome with infatuation. Similar is the case with Ezhavas and the Nairs; and also with the Brahmins. Doctors, Engineers, Management professionals and other career persons now belong to a higher class. The physically labouring or working classes including carpenters belong to a lower class.

In spite of all social revolutions, we have not arrived at the social designs of English nations. It is not possible with a feudal language designing us.

In Madras, I have seen Brahmin girls marrying lower caste persons of professional standing, and enjoying the benefits.

The present day Brahmin is the government employee; and next the teacher, who comes with the title of Sar and Teacher & Madam (female) in Travancore and Sar and Mash in Malabar. These titles are replacing caste titles. Within a few decades, the whole social designs connected to the ancient caste system will be wiped out. And replaced with newer castes, with the same superiority and inferiority issues.

The antique Brahmins are technically finished as far as social positions are concerned.

Now, to conclude: there is no need for clinging on to wrong perceptions. What is required is real cultural enhancement, which can outlive the affects of years of servitude. Colour and the vocation of ancestors do not matter. I personally will recommend a dose of British English in its uncorrupted form, as fantastic software for personality development.

And now a word to the Vandal who is lingering somewhere like a slimly creature in the grass: Do not simply destroy this post without trying to understand the information it contains.

User:Keraleeyan: Your crisp and sharp words, unlike my long worded prose, is true. Yet, I am not sure if you will agree with all I said.

This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where this�was posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=137893417
Comments can be added to the�Current Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page



-- Edited by Ved at 19:06, 2007-06-22



-- Edited by VED on Sunday 6th of August 2017 01:35:53 PM

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Fifteenth Post

would request the aggrieved persons to read my posts carefully, understanding the varied information given. There is no mentions or intention of belittling any caste; neither Ezhava, Thiyya nor Nair. Yet, all castes go on seeing only superior things, and get agitated when information that dont suit their taste comes in.

As to personal level of talk and suggestions of ill-happening for me, I think it doesnt suit the quality of debate in this site. It may only spoil the reputation of the persons involved, further. Moreover, these are things that can happen to anyone.

As to my political affiliation, I have none. I basically believe that our politicians and bureaucrats are taking us all on a wild goose chase.

My agenda is different from anything that has been suggested. What I may propose is that there is a lot of negativity in the communication around here. I remember one incident in a local village around many years ago. One locally acknowledged Nambhoothiri of superior family was crossing the river. There were many Thiyyas who were having bath there. The Nambhoothiris companion said to them: Please move away from the path of the Nambhoothiri.

All moved away in reverence. Yet, one impertinent one among them said: Nee poodo ninthe aithavum kondu (You get lost with your un-touch-ability). I am sure many persons here would rejoice in seeing this dialogue. Yet, there are other grave factors involved. The talk is in feudal Malayalam. It may be similar to saying: Nee poda to ones teacher or boss or some other social superior now.

Do not misunderstand me. I feel that all Malyalees can imbibe a lot of quality improvement. Not by being doctors, and Engineers, but even by being just drivers, coconut climbers, and other common man; what is required is a communication code that allows dignity in them also. Not just in Engineers and doctors. When there are doctors and Engineers in a community now, all that happens to the community is that it forces others to bow and respect them; others go down. Quality comes in being able to see dignity in others. I fear Malayalam and most other Indian languages cannot do this. It can see dignity only in higher people, whether they be higher castes or higher career.

As to dividing the community, I think it is much better the various castes leave their caste identifications behind, and aim for pure quality improvement. I do think that this reservation to public posts is making the whole nation sick. Remember that only few get its benefits; the majority suffer from the quality degradation.

Before embarking on any offensive talk, please read my posts completely and then only go on the defensive. Most of them have been lost from this page. Yet, there are in the link I have given in a post above.

I am giving a link to a writeup on Muthappan I did on a UK [site:http://www.ukresident.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=30736]

As to more detailed answer, I will have to post again

This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=138122823

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page



-- Edited by Ved at 19:25, 2007-06-22

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Sixteen Post

Read carefully before letting your blood boil

I did not expect the present level of agitation that has been generated over here. So, I think I will go over the issues carefully and delineate the points in a most detailed manner.

My attempt here:

As a person, who knows most of the districts of Kerala with varying levels of depth, and also having been exposed to the differing Malayalam dialects of the different districts, and also being reasonably good in English, with a more than average command over expressions, I think I will attempt at it.

When I first had my encounter with the southern districts, starting with Alleppy in 1970, as a young boy, there were a lot of impressions I had.

The Malayalam dialects

One of the first was the difference in Malayalam. In Malabar, there were two different Malalyalams then. One was the educated version, spoken by few educated persons, and the rest talking a dialect which may be absolutely incomprehensible to most southerners. For example, njalu oone oriyane keechu, will not be understandable to most southerners. The sentence I have given is from the standard uneducated Malayalam dialect of inner Calicut district. The southern versions were more connected to the official Malayalam.

Overwhelming Caste feelings

Second impression was the overwhelming presence of caste feeling among everyone. Caste was a very vibrant issue in the southern districts. The impression I received was of a very ungainly competition between the Ezhavas and the Nairs. I did not notice this level of mental competition between the Ezhavas and the higher castes like the Brahmins, and the Varmas, maybe because they existed in wider apart compartments.

Both the NSS and the SNDP were seen to be very militant in their attitude to each other; and also using disparaging terms about each other. This type of mental competition was not there then in Malabar; for one thing, the Thiyyas had not experienced any political suppression during the British rule. Yet, the Zamorins did not give much opportunity to the Thiyyas, but the British had effectively disabled the Zamorin. Yet, socially the lower level working class Thiyyas were in lower mental compartments.

Even now both the NSS and the SNDP are not very visible in the Malabar areas, other than among persons who think there is political mileage to be gained in being identified with them.

Educational quality

As to education, Malabar was comparatively poor educated if formal education was to be taken into account. Yet, what existed in the case of formal education was a minor group of educated persons. Now, at that time education was easily identified with a grand capacity in English. Thus there was a small group of persons, who were graduates, and were very much different from the larger crowd of persons. These types of persons are rare to find now. For, now education means having something called degree and PG degree, but with meagre capacity in English, and more or less no greater attainments in finer aspects.

Visibly different English

One very visible difference that I noticed was with English. Even though the educated persons were very less in Malabar, their English was reasonably good. When I came to Travancore, I encountered for the first time a strange variety of English. Work was vark, wash was vaash, Is was ees, and almost all English words sounded absolutely different.

Difference in addressing

Teachers couldnt be addressed with a nigal in Travancore; only with a Sar for both you and also for He and also as a suffix of positional title. The corresponding word in Malabar was Mash, with nigal allowed. He and She were ooaru.

Honest bureaucracy

Next aspect was at that time; Malabar was reasonably honest, for there was a more or less honest bureaucracy.

The terrible expletives

When talking about education, one remarkable thing worth mentioning is about expletives. In common Malabar, the highest bad word was Nayinte mone (Son of a bitch). Yet, when I reached Travancore, I found an immensity of bad words, used at random, just to show off ones social assertiveness. Most of them are not mentionable in their original form here in Malayalam.

Bribery as a lifestyle

The senior bureaucrats of Malabar till 1956 were in the Madras government service. Most of them were severely incorruptible; yet not because of some inner goodness, but that was the general standards. The first impressions that I had when I came to Travancore, from the general talk I listened to was that bribery was a common way of dealing with bureaucratic problems; and any one who did not practise it when he or she had the opportunity was an absolute fool and a simpleton.

The street-smart southerners

When comparing people, my impression was that the southerners were more street-smart, and more practical in their approach. They were seeing a lot of opportunities, with the PSC being in Trivandrum, and the general Malabar persons not knowing much about it, the whole crowd of educated and semi-educated persons in Travancore clamouring to get into it. Generally, in Malabar a government profession at that time was not a life aim for most persons. One of the reasons for this was that everyone could address the highest bureaucrat itself with a ningal, while in Travancore even the smallest bureaucrat was a Sar. Beyond that in Malabar, bureaucracy was not so vast in number.

The tumbling of the bureaucracy

Yet, I do remember elders remarking in Tellicherry area of the slow degradation of the bureaucracy after the British left, with now the Indian bureaucrat having no one to fear for.

The wide chasm

Next impression that I had was that on a general level there was no knowledge of Malabar among the common person of south; and in the same manner, the Malabar man was also having not much knowledge about the southern districts. The southerners were called the Statetukar by the northerners.

The media

The Malayalam papers had different editions, and my feelings are that the content and focuses were entirely different. So that what was discussed in the Calicut edition may vary much from the Kottayam edition. Nowadays, what is written by someone in Mathrubhoomi and Malayala Manorama influences the whole of Kerala in one stroke, and more or less everyone parrots the same ideas from Trivandrum to Kasargode.

When talking about media there is this issue. When the first Trivandrum edition of Mathrubhoomi came out, I was in Trivandrum. There was a general talk in the air of it being a Nair paper with Kerala Kaumudi being a Ezhava paper. With the militant stand of these communities, one could even identify the caste of a person by just seeing what paper he was subscribing to. I do not know what the present scenario is over there now. Now the most funny thing was this. In Malabar no one carries such a feeling about Mathrubhoomi. Moreover, one of the main partners of Mathrubhoomi is reputed to be the KTC, which is again reputed to be a Thiyya family.

Kumaran Asan

Now going back to the questions asked of me: I did not single out Mahakavi Asan for sectarian thoughts. I just copy pasted his name from the other article {Ezhavas and Tiyyas (by K K Kusaumam)} where he was clubbed along with the list of Ezhava leadership.

The Malabar personalities

Someone has mentioned: Moorkoth kumaran, Moorkoth ramunni, Moorkoth Kunhappa, Swamy Bodhananda, Champadan Vijayan(Thalassery)

I do not know all the names. For, it is my impression around here that generally people do not talk much on SNDP-NSS lines. Champadan is a know Thiyya family name of Tellicherry. As to the Moorkoth family, I do know that they were Thiyya family from Tellicherry which gained much social and professional elevation during the British times; with one of them actually being an Indian flying officer in the Royal Air Force. He did even fight in the Second World War. As a Thiyya family, yet being in the superior government services of the governing British must have been a sweet experience, when compared to the common Thiyya of Malabar, who were at best not a higher caste. Yet, in one of his writings I did see mention of British racialism, but nothing about the subjugation by the higher castes in Malabar on his family.

Similarity of customs

I do not have any personal aims in this debate other than to express my impressions on seeing scholarly article containing themes which are doubtful. For, one can find a lot of similar customs all around the world. Yet, just by seeing them in other places, one should not bring them under the address of ones own historical experiences. For example, one may find similarities between Chinese and Western Herbalism and Ayruveda; that does not mean its practitioners are from the same group. One may discern some similarity between Indian Tantric philosophy and Western Witchcraft, again the same issue.

Widening the caste boundary

If Kerala border were to extend beyond Kasargode, and enter much beyond Mangalore, there would be the need to again pass on all southern experiences to the communities living there. It is at all not required.

Creation of newer castes

As to caste, it is not dieing. New ones are being created. For the connection between ancient castes and vocation is dieing. New links are coming out. The new castes will be again based on professions. Yet, in the new scenario, for sometime, everyone will get a chance to change their caste as per the profession of their offspring. This will stop when the bureaucrats become able to reserve all government post for their own children. In a minor manner this is already happening. I have seen many government employees family cornering government jobs for generations. Even in the Medical colleges, many years ago, I did notice almost all of them being the children of government employees, with a few from Gulf based children.

The closing of gap

Beyond all this, at present there is not much difference between Malabar and the South in many aspect discussed. Bureaucratic corruption is rampant in Malabar also. Malayalam communication has become more feudal, than in the south. Common English standard are very pitiable, the English that comes especially from government schools are terrible; Women exist more terrible panes than in the south; either very low, or on very high level, never in a level of normalcy. Most people aim for government jobs, even that of a peon. The other option is a job in the Middle east, where again the aim is to garner money and come home to overlord over others. Generally Malabar Malayalam at lower levels is more stingingly feudal. Its effects can be seen in the general narrowness of roads, and unscientific designs of many things. And also in the demeanour of the persons at its butt end.

Another thing that is bound to come up is the general degradation coming to Autorickshaw drivers of Calicut. Calicut autorickshaw drivers have a rare reputation of honesty. Yet, with the bureaucracy and the police becoming more and more corrupt, and more feudal in communication, it is only a matter of time, before they also become like Trivandrum autorickshaw drivers.

Simmering caste feelings in the south

What I find from the reaction that has come from many others here is that there is still simmering caste antipathy burning in the southern districts. In a haste to garner strength, any information that seems to be not in line is not liked. In recent years, with the issue of communal reservation gathering enduring strength, caste issues are likely to come to Malabar also. I hope it does not.

The other visible thing is the general attitude of disparagement to many vocations. The feeling that only a doctor or engineer or being a government employment is a good job. It is not the fault of the people, but of the language which degrades many good professions.

This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=138300394

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page



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Seventeenth Post

I do not think that I have anywhere said anything bad about Sree Narayana Guru. It may be pointed out, if I have. As to being a follower of Sree Narayana Guru, I think even a Brahmin can be his follower. For, what he said sitting inside a superior-caste king ruling kingdom and having the daring to say that he was worshipping an Ezhava Shiva when the higher castes questioned the propriety of his sanctifying a Siva Idol, truly requires not only courage, but also extreme intelligence and wisdom. I do not think that any particular caste should claim Sree Narayana Guru solely for themselves.

As to the write up that contains a variety of themes, they do give a background to many simmering problems haunting the places; all of them do have severe connection to the caste issue also.

Also, please understand that this is a debate page, and not everyone who comes to write here will write the same things. Then there is no debate. Only a lot of self congratulatory sentences.

Also, I have been accused of being anti-Nair, anti-Ezhava, and now anti-Thiyya. It all has no meaning. Everyone is reacting as per their own affiliations. There are perspectives, some you like, some you dont. But it is not right to tell others to write only what one believes in. If it is not liked, then write the other version; use that right. Only do not say that others said what they did not. And that they should not write such and such views.

This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=138922170

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page



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Nineteenth Post

To User:Keraleeyan and user:Panikkar

I had no intention of causing commotion on this page. I came to the Ezhava page in a most coincidental manner, when I came searching for some caste lists. I found the writing in an internationally reputed website to be not fully informed.

Now, why should I feel that the grouping of Thiyyas under Ezhava as wrong? For one thing, I had noticed the slow amalgamation of Thiyyas with Ezhavas in government records happening slowing over the years. Earlier it happened with the Medical and Engineering college reservation/so-called Merit sears. Then it started happening in the major government records.

The problem here was at that time, the common Thiyyas had not much heard of the Ezhava (I am not talking of the learned and well travelled persons). And the common Ezhava had not heard much of the Thiyya.

Then User:Keraleeyan speaks of the base community and common looks. Well, it is true. Yet, the wider truth is that all Malayalee do have a more or less common looks, as of now. As I did remark in one of my other posts, if you go to a interior government school and look at the features of the children, nowadays it is not very much possible to find out who is a Thiyya, who is a Nair, and who is a Brahmin. (Varmas are rare). I have to insert here an observation that any man who lives for a long time in Tamilnadu imbibing the essentials of the Tamil language, after some time acquires a Tamil look. Likewise, corresponding features changes can be seen when persons live in Hindi areas, Bengali areas and even English areas. Malayalee children, Thiyyas, Ezhava, or Brahmin, if born and bred in England in pure English social atmosphere, will acquire features very much similar to perfect English men and Women, with only the colour standing out.

I have seen more assertive features in children from rich houses, gulf-returned children, and on children of government employees. The earlier caste version is getting erased. I am not sure it is all in a positive manner.

So all Malayalles are increasing becoming equalised in the same base community so long as they live in Kerala. This statement has a very grave implication; which needs more inspection.

Another thing is consider a case of a Thiyya marrying a Nair or Pulaya or Brahmin. What happens is that, that person is entering a web of relationships in which he or she has no other connections. For example, if you think of Thiyyas in Cannanore, one may see that all Thiyyas can claim some family relationship with any other Thiyya. Yet, if one Thiyya marries into the other castes mentioned, it is an entirely new web, with no one to seek as some relative in the new links.

Now, this is or was the case with a Thiyya marrying an Ezhava. Or an Ezhava marrying a Thiyya. Over the years, I am sure many relationships have developed I am sure. Moreover, there would be mixing in the boundary areas of north and south Kerala.

These are some of the reasons why I proposed both the castes are different. Other than that, all the recent historical problems of the Ezhavas with the statutory laws of Travancore have nothing to do with Thiyyas. So, such mentioning is not correct. For, it gives false links to people who are not so connected. Moreover, I did see mention of persons involved, to be linked with the word Kerala, when actually their period of life were much earlier to the birth of Kerala.

The problem of these writing is that they are from a southern perspective; which I found very awkward, not because of some parochial spirit, but because the perspective needs correction. For, this perspective will become formal history, when actually it is only partial history of the state known as Kerala.

Now, what is the problem in saying the observation that both are different castes having similar, not necessarily same, social positioning historically? There is no need to fight; there is no insult intended.

About Itty Achyuthan, I have no qualms about accepting the information given by user:Panikkar. Yet, I find the sentence posted by someone: This can just a dream 08:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC) as very funny. I am not standing here holding a Thiyya flag or come here to trumpet Thiyya supremacy. I am purely interested in correcting information, as per my observations. Once I did see a similar contest among some persons, some of them claiming that some of the major characters in the Vadakkan Patttukal are Nairs, and others fighting to show that they are Thiyyas. As for me, I would be happy to hear the correct information, their being Nair is not going to hurt me, nor their being Thiyya going to make me beam with glory. I personally have noting to do with them, and it seems pretty silly to feel that any caste connection with them is going to give an impression that I am also having inherent proficiency in Kalari.

As for the observation about Sree Naryana Guru, on retrospect I regret that an impression that I see him in bad light has been felt. In fact, my admiration for him is more than any feeling that I have for most of the National leaders, including those connected to the so-called freedom struggle. For in the case of the freedom struggle leaders, the higher persons were acknowledged by the British, and most of them had lived in England. Such leadership is cosy. In the case of Sree Naryana Guru: here was a well-informed person, who lived among the lower castes, and the butt of disparaging comment from the higher ups. To bear the brunt of derision, that too in a feudal language, and yet maintain his equanimity and lead the people to liberation, necessarily requires a divine halo.

Yet, there is some thing more to be said about this. I may point to that in another post, as the words here are becoming too long.

There are other things also that need mentioning; actually much more. Those also I may find time to post another time.

All these comments may be taken lightly; there is no need to get agitated. I write with no ill-will

Twentieth Post

There seems to be a lack of noticing the fact that I was doing a comparison of two places as they existed some 30 to 40 years back. What I did write was simply an introduction to a longer theme.
Yet, I am happy there is tone of healthy debate here, even though there has been comments about my website and books with no readership. There are personal attributes, as to whether I give my books to another publisher or not.
Since there has been replies, I hope to come back with a mood of healthy talk; not with any vibrant feel of fighting for any caste or philosophies. I want time for that, as I am otherwise engaged now.
I do understand that when I did a comparison of the places mentioned, it did have a feel of not suiting this page. Yet, there is a link, for it does give a start to a particular theme for debate which is consistent with the people of Kerala, who also include the mentioned communitites.


This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=138922170

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page


-- Edited by Ved at 19:49, 2007-06-22

-- Edited by Ved at 19:55, 2007-06-22

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Twenty first Post

You are under a misunderstanding that I am representing any community. I wrote my impressions as I saw it happen. As for communities, I think it is time to think beyond narrow communities, and go for a more cosmopolitan approach.

This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=138923815

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page


Twenty second Post

Gentlemen:

I just saw the various replies. I would like to reply. Time is the problem. Generally when I write from my own mind, I can write around 10,000 words in a day, when typing on the computer. Just because I write fast doesnt mean that I am idle. I write when I have time.

As to civility, I do not think that amount of insults that has been directed at me is comparable to anything I have said. In my emails also, I did receive an immensity of emails with low standard comments; may be they are still arriving. The spam filter is doing its job. As to the insults, I can bear it as I know what the standards in the streets are. Moreover, in my college days, I did find that this was the way the students were involuntarily being trained.

What I understand here is that instead of arguing a point with civility, generally the tendency has been to make personal attacks and comments. I think if a few persons around here can maintain the standards, I think this discussion page can be made to exist at a very intelligent level. It in itself can exhibit a lot of character.

I find that most of my posts have been removed. People put words into my articles and others argue about that.

In the early stages, there was someone constantly putting some paragraphs on Toddy tappers into my writings; in so much, even the Administrator thought that I am the person doing the mischief.

Before going ahead, I think I need to think of a way to keep my posts intact.

As to caste factors, I must say that I am a person who has no caste feelings. In fact, when I first came to Travancore, when the caste count was done in the class, I did not know my caste. Actually, caste was not an issue with me. I was simply writing what my observations were. Even if I were not an Hindu also, I would have mentioned what I was under the impression of.

Similarly, when I mentioned the Nair-Sudra connection, again I did get an immensity of attacks. It may simply be understood that people believe in and argue for some sort of ancient superiority, when what actually is required is only a quality improvement of the present generation.

As to antiquity, please understand that a person to be born 20 generations hence is actually connected to around 2,000,000 persons currently alive.

I will give answers to the various points; yet, I would also like to continue the essential theme of my various earlier post; which at the most is stalled by so many commotions here. I will come back as soon as I get some time, in the next few days


This links to the archived Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Ezhava&oldid=139388320

Comments can be added to theCurrent Ezhava Talk Page and not on the linked page



-- Edited by Ved at 20:08, 2007-06-22

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23rd Post: An Explanation
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23rd Post: date of posting: 26th June 2007

There have been a lot of comments of varying moods on my posts here. Most of my posts are not here on this page anymore, with most of them having been vandalised/removed by someone.

This page is actually meant to bring in improvements and corrections to the Ezhava Page. I do not think it is possible with the current mood of taking offence to information that seems unpalatable.

There have been a lot of retorts to my comments. It is not possible to reply to them without going a bit beyond the parameters of the castes in discussion. Yet, since the castes are connected to the people here, many of their aspects also will need to be brought into the debate. It is only natural. Thus words cannot be confined to watertight compartments.


English & Malayalam

First to take user:Keraleeyans words in regard English and Malayalam. When talking about personality development on an individual level, I think English cannot come near Malayalam. For, once a person reaches some social position or financial acumen, feudal level Malayalam words can give him crippling powers over others. This type of personality development English cannot lend to any of its speakers. The personality development that I was referring to was of a whole society developing.


Subduing an human aura

I remember an incident that happened around 1984. One of my relatives, a senior retired bureaucrat had a tiff with a working-class man (of equal age) on some financial aspect of some contract. Naturally this person took it to the police station. There (I understand) both were present. The retired bureaucrat in a seat and addressed with reverential words, while the working class man addressed as Nee and referred to as Avan. To say that these words do not have any affect is to be blind.

Later the police informed that we have told him (avanodu) that we will punch his bone into water (idichhu vellamakkum). Being well ingrained in the security that English lends, I only hope that persons placed in similar position could tell the police with assertiveness that they cant understand Malayalam, only English is comprehensible.


What created the aura and how it was lost

Now, this incident may be taken to an earlier referring of mine to the converted to Menon issue. People who are kept at the lower edges of a stinging feudal language do exhibit a hue of subjugation, and possibly physical/spiritual ugliness. It is definitely not a genetic design, even though science has not yet discussed on this aspect of physical designing. If

Again, I did mention about the superior looks of a minor percentage of Thiyyas that came to be perched on them during the times of British rule. I do not think that the Thiyyas population has been able to retain it in the newer social circumstances.

The issue in that converted to Menon issue, which I feel is the only rude thing that I did mention on this site, should not be taken as an offence, but the persons concerned should have the profundity to understand the powerful codes that created the issue. The person who did make this comment was only displaying the affects of the liberal social atmosphere he experienced from English and English superiors.


The imbalances

Again, it must be stated that the problem with unbalanced languages is that they can create severe imbalances in social relationships as the society tries to go in for liberated social designs.


Creation of aversion

Now talking about the suppression and aversion that the higher castes felt to the lower castes is not a bygone issue. In fact, it is a fact of everyday life even in present day India. Now castes do not mean much, profession and financial capacity means much. Recently one persons of superior social position told me that when he was standing in a market, a unfamiliar man from the labour class came and addressed him with affable familiarity, in a most friendly manner, with a Nee. It was only a display of camaraderie; yet, it was repulsive and the other man made haste to move away.


A different historical perspective

Again user:Keraleeyan has said about British rule and Jallianwala bagh. Not only Jallinawalabagh but also the immensity of police and military atrocities going on in our nation can be explained only from a very different perspective of history, till now not attempted by any so-called experts. A slight attempt can be seen at on this link.

As to the evilness of the British colonial empire, well what we saw over here was only a amalgamation of soft English systems as they existed in the midst of a feudal language social system. Even then, British administrators were far better in their approach to local problems, when compared to local persons who came to don administrative authority. Not because the former were better persons, but because they were living in a more liberal language system; one that couldnt despoil another man or womans innate individuality by the simple choice of words.


The present day Malabar

user:panikkar has admonished with me (in a refined manner) for my comments comparing the south and north. I appreciate the tone. Thank you. Now let me say that what I wanted to say was that the Malabar which was once identified with the offspring of the British does not exist. In many ways, especially in the interiors, it is creepy.


The spiritual parameter of development

Yet, talking about development, it is true that the south does exhibit the affect of huge financial investments. I remember when I used to travel regularly by my own vehicle from north to south every month, around the beginning of the 90s, I was deeply impressed by the stretch of road from Quilon to Trivandrum. Straight like an arrow, with mirror like finish.

Going beyond the physically visible development there is another side that is not noticed or noticeable to the layman. When one thinks of development, it is sort of visualising a car and a concrete house for everyone and all of the population either a doctor, an engineer or a government employee. This type of development is not possible.

The other indispensable development is in the quality of the people. And not of a people who are differentiated into a varying levels of groups, each bitterly envious of the other. Not of a group of persons trained in showing obsequious servitude to the highly placed and terrifying repression to the lower placed. This I feel can come from a good training in English. Whether it be Brahmin, Ezhava, Malayan, Nair, Pulaya, Thiyya, Varma, and much else.


Escaping the rhetoric

It is easy to demonstrate a passion for Malayalam. Yet, to the lower placed persons, I would say, do not believe in such rhetoric and gimmickry. Learn good English and escape the slavery that is encoded in the language of the higher ups. Let English not be the language of the rich; let it be the language of the common man.


The factor of honesty

Then about the factor of honesty. I had qualified by sentence with: for there was a more or less honest bureaucracy. I fear that it was not noticed. Bureaucratic honesty does have a great role in permeating this quality down the ladder. I remember an incident in 1984, when I was travelling from Statue to Kesavadasapuram in an auto rickshaw. The driver overcharged. When it was pointed out, he said to the effect: Everywhere we have to give bribe; to the RTO office, to the Motor Vehicle Inspector, to the policemen on traffic duty, no paper, permit or certificate is given on time. We do not complain or have any place to complain. When we simply overcharge you a few rupees extra, you are raising a hullo bulla. He did not mention that he was also bearing the brunt of lower levels words in Malayalam usually addressed to commercial drivers.


Innate goodness

Then I need to answer to another comment about innate goodness and English. It is true that there are good and bad persons everywhere; yet, crude languages can spoil others who come to bear their brunt. Speaking English does not make a man good. Yet, it saves him from the heinous codes aimed at him using feudal languages by others.


Candid observation and shallow research

Then about research. I do not do research if this word is supposed to mean reading a lot of book by so-called experts. What I have written here is simply what I have observed over the years. Yet, I must admit that I have also read much on a variety of themes.


Women and social class

I had mentioned thus: Women exist more terrible panes than in the south; either very low, or on very high level, never in a level of normalcy.

Around 1980, when I brought some young friends of mine from Travancore, to Tellicherry, they were deeply impressed by the assertiveness of the womenfolk (thiyya) in the house there. Yet, there was a lot of Thiyya women there itself who lived in the lower levels of assertiveness also. Even though, I had first thought that the higher assertiveness of the former group of women were connected to the now-redundant matriarchal system, I later did find certain other clear reasons for both the higher as well lower assertiveness of the differing groups of women.


Designing beauty

Then back to the issue of language; it may be felt that I am a person who has no knowledge of Malayalam. It is not true. I have seen the beauty that can be carved using Malayalam words; I have seen it in the immense film songs of Vayalar Rama Varma. When it came coupled with the haunting music of another genius called G Devarajan, the effect was simply divine. Yet, there are much more to be said of Malayalam.


Exceeding the bounds

It may be felt that this post of mine has exceeded the parameters of the context of the subject of this page. I had to say so much because the other posts demanded a explanation. Yet, I do doubt whether the Talk Page has the ambit to contain a wider debate on the various aspects of the subject matter. It basically can only debate on improving the Ezhava Page.


A copy to forestall vandalising

Because there has been constant vandalising of my posts here, I keeping a copy of all my posts here in this link. It may be understood that no replies or comments can be done there.


This links to the Wikipedia Ezhava Talk Page, where thiswas posted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ezhava



-- Edited by Ved at 19:05, 2007-06-26

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RE: Postings on Wikipedia Ezhava Page
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Other factors that design caste structurePosted: October 5th 2007
It has been a long time since I came here. Other preoccupations.

I have the feeling that castes and connected things are not entities separated from other features connecting to a person in this society. Yet, to discuss about them would take the discussion to a wider ambit of subjects. This may not be liked here. In my posts, I did allude to many things which from an immediate perspective did not belong to the subject matter here. Even though a debate on Kalari wouldnt be objected to. There are other things more closers to the society here than Kalari.

So I have kept an article on this link[11], which can have connection to my earlier posts here, but may at the moment may seem not connected to the subject matter. Actually it is very much connected.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ezhava#Fair_use_rationale_for_Image:Sathyananthikkad.jpg



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from VICTORIA INSTITUTIONS, Deverkovil; ved036@gmail.com

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Date:
A series of postings in a British website
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If any of the readers here are interested in reading a particular series of articles that I have posted on a British site, they may click here: UKResidentUkResident

At the same time, if the reader is interested in downloading a few few pages from my book: March of the Evil Empires: English verses the Feudal Languags can click here: Ved's PagesVed's Pages


Moreover, if any of the readers want to write here, they can very well do so by first registering and then logging in.

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